From College Dropout to $9000/Day Wedding Musician | Moses Lin (#3)

Allison:

Alrighty, so today I am here with Moses Lin and Moses is a guitarist and he has a really cool story to share, so I'm excited to dive in. Thank you so much for being here today, Moses.

Moses Lin:

You're welcome. How's it going?

Allison:

It's going well, going well, excited for this. So let's dive right in. You were recently featured on CNBC Make It series for earning 245K

Moses Lin:

Yeah

Allison:

and that's just, first of all, super cool. I'm curious, how does that interview even come about? Like, how did they reach out or like, what did that process look like for you? So, I'm excited to be here with you. I'm excited to be here with you. I'm excited to be here with you. I'm excited to

Moses Lin:

That

Allison:

be here with

Moses Lin:

was

Allison:

you. I'm excited to be

Moses Lin:

really

Allison:

here with you.

Moses Lin:

crazy because it was just an Instagram DM. They reached out

Allison:

Really?

Moses Lin:

to me. I got this random DM one day and they were like, hey, someone suggested that you would be a great fit for this and we just wanna reach out and see if you wanna do this. And I was like, it was a little unnerving at first because they wanted to know all my financial details.

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

And so they asked for my tax returns, my bank statements, everything. It was like applying for a mortgage pretty much. And so it was very, And they're like, and they wouldn't tell me what they were gonna tell people because it's not like

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

they write something up and then you can like review it. They're just like, give us all your information and then we're gonna publish something. And so I was like, you're gonna tell the whole world all my financial information. So it was a little scary. But it ended up being a pretty cool opportunity actually, yeah.

Allison:

I love that. Okay, so did you see what they made before it went live or were you just like, here's my financial life and go be free with it? We'll see what happens.

Moses Lin:

That was pretty much it. So they

Allison:

Really?

Moses Lin:

asked for all these documents. They're like, send us

Allison:

Wow.

Moses Lin:

childhood photos of you playing piano as well, you know? And so I sent them like everything. And then they just sent a videographer to my house to like interview me. And like, they

Allison:

Oh

Moses Lin:

wouldn't

Allison:

my gosh.

Moses Lin:

tell me what the interview questions were. So they just sat me down. They asked me a bunch of questions and they just pretty much left. And then I just had to cross my fingers and hope they don't like, I don't know, misinterpret something or post the wrong

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

thing or you know, mess up some, I don't know, number. And then yeah, they posted it. But I think the response to that cool because I think like originally I was really worried about you know like sometimes people get weird about sharing how much they make I know this whole like movement of like pay transparency which I was thinking a lot about where it's like well if you share how much you make then other people can use that to leverage you know their own positions right so I was thinking like hey if I share how much I make maybe musicians can also leverage that and be like oh maybe it is possible to make this much money and so I actually got a lot of musicians reaching out to me after that saying like hey like how do you do this? Can you, you know, coach me? Can you train me? And so I had musicians like all over the country, all over the world actually. I had some people from like Singapore and Ireland that I've been coaching. And I think it's been a really cool opportunity because I think like typically I grew up, it's kind of weird to talk about money, it's weird to share how much you make. You try to be very, very secretive, very humble about that. But I think I really like the fact that by being make a lot more money and so I'm very happy about that.

Allison:

Amazing. Yeah, I would definitely, I can see how it turned out to be such a great thing, taking the selfless position of like, okay, I'm already figured something out here. What does it benefit me to share it? But you're helping so many people by doing it. So I think that it is an incredible thing to just have other

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

musicians' minds open to what is possible. Cause it's like the form, I don't know if you've heard about the four minute mile thing, but it's like before the first person ran the four minute

Moses Lin:

Yep.

Allison:

mile, everyone thought it was impossible. And then once people saw it was possible, lots of people do it now.

Moses Lin:

Oh

Allison:

I

Moses Lin:

yeah,

Allison:

feel like a similar

Moses Lin:

the same thing

Allison:

thing is

Moses Lin:

with

Allison:

taking

Moses Lin:

the

Allison:

place.

Moses Lin:

triple axel or something like that with figure skating.

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

There was one spin

Allison:

Yeah.

Moses Lin:

move where it's like, for the longest time, people are like, this is impossible, no one can ever do it. And then one person pulls it off, and then the next year at the Olympics, everyone's doing it.

Allison:

Wow.

Moses Lin:

Because

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

you just need that one person to be like, it's possible, and then everyone has this mental shift of like, well if it's possible, why can't I do it, right? And I think that's one thing that's been hard about my business is that I'm constantly searching. this podcast and you are charging a significant amount of money for weddings, I would love to meet you. Like honestly, like please send me a DM because I'm constantly looking for people that are like charging a ton of money and like doing this at a very high level because I want to connect. I want to like share ideas. I want to see what you guys are doing. I think that's been really hard for me though is that I haven't really been able to find peers in this space. And so it does

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

kind of feel like I'm doing the four minute mile where I'm pushing into the four minute mile. For the sake of transparency, I just booked a $9,000 local wedding. And that was a pretty huge milestone for me because I think back in the day when I was charging like $900, I thought I was like at the top of the world. I was like, oh my God, this is so much money. But honestly, I think that's something where it is hard to continue to push and improve when it feels like uncharted territory.

Allison:

Yeah, absolutely. We do need each other and I'm glad to see more of this happening like even right now where we're like, hey, like This is what this is what's working for me and this is what's possible And I think that more community is definitely going to help more musicians. So with that

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

said you've been a trailblazer It looks like here. Um

Moses Lin:

I

Allison:

in

Moses Lin:

appreciate

Allison:

terms

Moses Lin:

that.

Allison:

of figuring this out. Absolutely. Um, so For those who maybe haven't seen the interview or don't know much about you. Do you mind just like taking us through the briefly through the timeline of the key events of brought you to where you are now.

Moses Lin:

Yeah, let's see. So I dropped out of college in 2016. And I told my parents, I wanna do live music. Well, at the time I was just teaching guitar lessons. So I was like, I dropped out of college to do music. And they were like, hell no.

Allison:

Hehehe

Moses Lin:

Which was a fun conversation to have. But essentially when I dropped out of college, I had very little money in the bank. I had, I was making maybe a thousand dollars. I had maybe like a dozen guitar students. kind of my thing. I was like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna build up my YouTube channel, and that's kind of my path forward. So very early on, probably like within the first year, I got a call from Disneyland, just out of the blue. And they were like,

Allison:

Thanks for watching. Bye.

Moses Lin:

Hey, we saw your YouTube videos, we'd love to have you perform at downtown Disney, would you like to audition? And I was like, Oh my god, yes. And so that was kind of my first performing experience. So I started performing at downtown Disney, you know, local shopping malls and restaurants and stuff like that. lobbies. That was kind of my beginning. Eventually someone asked me to do a wedding. I did a wedding and I was like, oh my God, I love this. Like the energy, the vibes, everyone's so happy. It's amazing, right? And so I was like, I want to do this. And so my first wedding, I charged $250 for ceremony and cocktail hour, which is ridiculous. And within the next like maybe year, I transitioned completely into 100% wedding. It's just only private events. And that was kind of how it all started. So I started scaling that up. In 2019 was kind of like my peak of like volume. So in 2019, I had 205 performances, which was way too much for anyone to

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

conceivably do. And so I remember one, there was one month in April, April 2019, I did 29 performances. I did two weddings

Allison:

Thanks for watching!

Moses Lin:

in the same day. It was crazy. I like did an 11 to two wedding Laguna Beach and then drove, I don't know, like 150 miles to Palm Springs for a 6 p.m. wedding. It was crazy. I'll never do it again. But yeah, and then so from then it was just there was so much volume I scaled it down and started scaling up price like crazy. And yeah, so currently I do about 45 a year. That's kind of usually where I cap it. And I'm charging around five to $6,000 per wedding, usually.

Allison:

Amazing, okay. So thank you for sharing that breakdown. So it sounds like amazing to be where you are right now, but I'm sure in the moment, dropping out of college, having that conversation for your parents,

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

what were you feeling at that point? Was that like, how confident were you? Or did you feel like, what am I doing? I'm scary, what was going through your mind?

Moses Lin:

I think I've always been confident in my ability to make shit happen. So

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

if something happens, being able to react to it and adjust course. I think that's a skill that I picked up in the military. So before college, I was in the Marines. And so there's this level of grit where it's like no matter what happens, I can find a solution to it and make this work. I'm

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

going to sneeze. We can edit that out.

Allison:

It's all right, we're back.

Moses Lin:

So yeah, so I think like when I dropped out of college, I knew that I was making just enough money to cover rent and ramen, and that was like enough

Allison:

I'm sorry. I'm

Moses Lin:

for

Allison:

sorry.

Moses Lin:

me. I was like, I just need to work my ass off and make this happen. And so for me, it was like really exciting because I believed in myself, right? But I think my family, it was a lot harder because they have a certain view of, you know, what is the right path? What's like a smart move to do? I remember my uncle like called my mom a few times like you have to convince him to go back to college, like I won't have my nephew performing on the street corner. He thought I was going to be one of those busking musicians in the subway or something

Allison:

Mmm.

Moses Lin:

like that.

Allison:

Mmm.

Moses Lin:

And yeah, so I think there's a lot of that. I think now that I'm doing pretty well, my parents are a lot more supportive and they realize and they'll say, they'll say like, yeah, you made the right choice. We should have believed in you, kind of stuff like that, which is nice.

Allison:

Right. Yeah, absolutely. So I know again coming back to like where you are now like you can make up for kind of that time where things felt a little bit more uncertain but it sounds like you had like this inner confidence that like yeah I can figure things out. Where do you think that came from? Like it seems like you're like you're obviously very entrepreneurial so did you come from an environment that was entrepreneurial at all or where do you feel I'm just going to figure this out.

Moses Lin:

I mean, I think it came from the Marines, but I was not entrepreneurial growing up. And it's actually

Allison:

Interesting.

Moses Lin:

funny, because a few months ago, I was talking to my parents about that. And they're like, we don't know where this came from. Because growing up, you were never like that. You never had a business mindset. And my parents are academics, so they're not like that either. My whole family, no one is a business owner. I'm the first. And so it was really kind of out of the blue for everyone, for me to take this path. And I think my first intro, into it was like teaching guitar lessons and doing that.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

And I think it was just really the fact that I love the freedom of it and not having a boss. You

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

know, like kind of like, it's funny because I was in the military but I really hate like authority figures. So I

Allison:

Thanks

Moses Lin:

had

Allison:

for

Moses Lin:

this

Allison:

watching!

Moses Lin:

like natural rebellious side. So you tell me to do something, I'm gonna do the opposite. I'm like, no,

Allison:

Hehehehe

Moses Lin:

absolutely not. Like why, tell me why? Like, and so

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

I very naturally rebel. And so I think having the freedom to do anything I want, however I want, structure my business however I want, Handle my clients handle my policies any way I want That was just like ultimate freedom and having no one to like answer to it was fantastic And so I think when I got a taste of that I was like I don't ever want to do a nine-to-five ever again

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

Because I feel like with a nine-to-five like you have no control over like your your schedule or like even your income Like if you want to make more money, you can't you have to like once a year like beg for more money But

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

if you're like like us right like it's entrepreneurs Like if we want to make an extra ten thousand dollars this month there making another $10,000. It's so easy. Like you just you hustle, you spend an extra, you find another 20 hours, you call a bunch of people and you just make it happen, right? So we have like so much control over everything really. It's beautiful. Or like you, you make an e-course and you just start selling it and it's you know stuff like that. So the opportunities are endless.

Allison:

I love that. That's 100%. I feel like there's so many people who'd kind of just catch the entrepreneurial bug by accident and they

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

just have this moment where like, okay, things click. And I think that for you, it sounds like music was the motivation and just not wanting to be in someone else's box. But then it seems like there was a point when you did a wedding and things really clicked. Can you explain when things kind of clicked like, oh, I see how I can make money with this. And what was that moment like for you? So, I think that's the moment when you're like, oh, I'm gonna make money with this.

Moses Lin:

Oh yeah, there was a big moment. So

Allison:

I'm going to

Moses Lin:

I

Allison:

go

Moses Lin:

think

Allison:

to bed. Bye.

Moses Lin:

like, well, this is gonna like touch on like price and psychology very briefly, but like, you know, if you're a musician, you're charging, I think a lot of times our money mindset, like personal money mindset affects, we project that onto our clients, right? So if

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

we say, man, I would never spend more than $300 for live music at my wedding, then we project

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

that, and we say, wow, like my clients would never pay more than that either. Not true,

Moses Lin:

they have a lot more money than us, they view it very differently, and so you can't really project that, right? I remember back in the day, this was my peak year, 2019, I was doing crazy volume. I was charging, I was doing a wedding, it was I think June,

Allison:

Mm-hmm

Moses Lin:

and I was charging $600 for a ceremony plus a travel fee to San Diego. And I thought I was charging so much money. I was like, I can't believe they're paying $650 for

Allison:

Thanks for watching!

Moses Lin:

me to play 30 minutes, this is crazy, right?

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

I would never pay that much. That's so much

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

at that time, right? And I got there and I was talking to the cocktail hour musician and they were doing cocktail hour It was like a duo one was like a singer guitarist and one was like playing Cajon, right? And I was like I was hearing them soundcheck and like, you know, as musicians were always very like critical, right? And so in my mind I'm like, okay, you know, like I'm better than these guys, right? And so I was like I wonder how much they charge and this is one thing like if you meet me like I will ask you How much you charge I ask everyone how much they charge, right? should be a very transparent thing.

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

And so I asked them, I was like, hey, how much are you guys charging? And they were like, we're charging $12.50 for cocktail hour. And I was like, oh my God, are you serious? And in that instant, I knew I could have charged a client $1,500 for ceremony, and they would have swiped their card, no questions asked, and it would have been, and I was like, oh, whoa, and I think the whole, this ceiling just got blown off of what I thought the cap was. Yeah, so essentially I went home, I immediately doubled my pricing. So they're like, we're charging 12,000. I was like, well, I now start at 1250. I was like, that's my new minimum.

Allison:

Thanks.

Moses Lin:

And so I went

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

home, doubled my pricing, and I found that people started booking more. So

Allison:

Wow.

Moses Lin:

I got more people booking me because all of a sudden, it looked like I was providing more value. And

Moses Lin:

it's all about just providing value and

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

charging accordingly.

Allison:

Okay, amazing. I know that like when I first started charging more as well, it's like there's this huge barrier that musicians feel in their mind. I think what you're saying is exactly true, that it's like they put themselves in the shoes of their clients and be like, oh, I wouldn't charge

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

that much or I wouldn't like pay that much. So why can

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

I charge that much? But I think that's the biggest skill is just learning that it's not your money. Like they can

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

decide to do what they want and they have different values than you do. And like learning to think through their perspective they truly value is I think part of the key to unlocking it. But I still feel like there's a lot more to unlock. So let's dive into it when it comes to your pricing strategy and psychology, because I think

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

that's probably what is wowing musicians or maybe breaking minds right now when it comes to your pricing strategy. What do you think is the real key to your success in being able to bracket yourself into like the luxury prices that you're charging now and providing that value?

Moses Lin:

It's hard to like boil that to one thing. Let me let me try

Allison:

We can do a bunch, take your time.

Moses Lin:

Sure sure I Think one like big picture. Let's go big picture and then we can dial down to smaller things

Allison:

Sure, sure.

Moses Lin:

and I think it's also you know, there's a lot of you know, even bigger picture things such as like where you live, right? So like

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

I live in California. So Southern California the budgets are really high So, you know, obviously if you live in you know, not a huge city you're not gonna be able to charge as much because the local people, the average income is not as high, right?

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

And so there's like general overarching things like that, but big picture. I think I would say my overall branding strategy is to position myself as a luxury good, right?

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

And so if you've shopped at like Gucci or Hermes, or if you ever go to a store and you look at Rolexes, right, like there's a certain customer service that they provide to you and there's a certain way they

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

position their brands and there's

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

this

Allison:

So, we're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started. We're gonna go ahead and get started.

Moses Lin:

weird psychology with that where, for example, if you're looking at, oh my God, like let's say a Gucci belt, right? Those things are what, like three, $400? It's ridiculous, right? Why would you ever pay that much for a belt? But like a belt should be what, like $30, $40? But for some reason, the way they position themselves, when you walk in that store, you see a $400 belt and you're like, that's not that bad. I need that. I need that.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

like why did I spend so much money on it right as opposed to if you go to Macy's and you see an $80 but you're like hell no none not a chance in hell right so the thing is that there's there's needs and then there's wants right so

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

if you are structured as if you position yourself as like here's just one more thing on your checklist that you need right immediately you're in this budget mindset of how do I get this thing for as cheap as possible right

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

like oh music for my wedding I guess we need something for Let's just find something for like three or four hundred dollars. That's fine, right?

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

But if you position yourself for like a luxury good all of a sudden the mindset shifts and it's like, oh my god I need this I'm gonna splurge for this, right? So the whole like

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

I'm gonna splurge for this is a huge deal So like I do a lot of weddings where I find out that I'm like a huge percentage of their budget like typically like music Should be like five to ten percent of your wedding budget, right? Like if you're booking like a band, maybe it's more right? But for like music it's a low percentage I'm like 30 to 40 percent of the entire wedding budget because they're like for my wedding I really want to splurge on Moses and I'm gonna cut everything

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

else and like so Now the question is how do you do that? Right? How do you position yourself as a luxury good?

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

So I think there's a couple ways to do that I think across the board you need some kind of like brand consistency so that no matter where they look you look Very presentable, right? I think one of my pet peeves is just musicians that don't dress up well, right? So like, every picture, like if you're a guy, wear a suit, every wedding,

Allison:

Everybody,

Moses Lin:

full suit, no questions asked, like,

Allison:

awesome.

Moses Lin:

I don't care how hot it is, you're wearing a full suit, right? You need to like, you have to look the part, you know, before everything. But I think it all comes down to experience. So like, are you providing an experience for people, right? You're not just live music, your entertainment, right? Are you entertaining

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

people? And so I really like to post a lot of very engaged in the moment. And so whether they're singing along, whether I get them dancing at cocktail hour, whether I get a guest crying at ceremony, like you want these moments where a bride will look at it and be like, oh my God, I need this at my wedding, right? And so I think really trying to separate yourself from you're not background music, you are the star of the show, you are the performer. And I think some people get kind of weird about, they're like, oh, but it's not my wedding, why should I be the star? They want you to be the star, right? And they'll tell you

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

if they don't right so like obviously listening

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

to clients But I have a lot of couples that are just like really introverted and they're like we are really uncomfortable in the spotlight So we want you to be like extra we want you to take the spotlight away from us. So we don't feel uncomfortable I got

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

you. I can do that. I'll turn it to ten. I'll be over the

Moses Lin:

ham It'll be fantastic, right? Other couples don't want that and I don't do that. Right? So sometimes you just got to read it but People want to be entertained, right? I think especially in this like current social media age of like, you know, very short attention spans, like 15 second reels, people are just scrolling, they're finding the next thing to like entertain them. Like you, the biggest fear for brides is being bored at a wedding. Like if

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

your guests are bored at your wedding for even like 15 seconds, like 15 seconds is an eternity, right? Like if you're ever like sitting somewhere and like, if you just count how long it takes you to pull out your phone and start scrolling Instagram, right? How like, how long you just It is so long. I mean, it's so short, right? You

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

sit in the dentist's office for like 10 seconds, you're like, oh my God, I need to be entertained right now. You pull out your phone. And I think that's what it is. It's like, brides need to know that their guests will not be bored for a single second. And if you can assure them of that, they're gonna book you. And now it's a, I need this person because they're gonna save my wedding and not, oh, we just need someone to, you know, do music in the background, just as like a check mark on our list. Yeah.

Allison:

Okay, like I've been like doing this and coaching this and I'm having so many light bulbs go off of things that I'm just getting clarity about because that's so true. There's so many clients Um, or there's different categories I've felt it before because like I'm not in the luxury price bracket that that you've accomplished

Allison:

exactly. So you wanna think about how you can be that thing people want, not what they need, not just like, okay, let's check this box,

Moses Lin:

Yes.

Allison:

it's done. This is what I'm looking for. And that was also very interesting what you said about the clients wanting there to be a focal point something for their guests to just be guaranteed to have a good time about. Because yeah, I can also understand from being a bride point of view, and people who aren't extroverted, they don't want all the attention and they're scared of people being

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

bored and just having that mental relief that, okay, this is gonna be a lot

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

of fun, they're gonna get the guests engaged. I can see how that is a huge piece of value offer. Now, I also know that you have a good eye and you understand aesthetics really well, your website's stunning, and you're also

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

good at the SEO So how have you found that that has, what value has that provided to your brand, would you say?

Moses Lin:

like aesthetics and SEO. Aesthetics,

Allison:

Yeah, exactly.

Moses Lin:

let's start with

Allison:

Okay.

Moses Lin:

aesthetics. Aesthetics are everything in the wedding industry,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

right? It's all about

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

how it looks, the visuals, like the feel, the vibe, right? So the smallest things such as like, I tell wedding planners, like I ask them, I'm like, hey, send me the Pinterest board, send me the mood board. I want my suit to match the colors of the wedding, right? Like

Allison:

Wow.

Moses Lin:

I'm part of it. And so like, Do you want me in black tie? Do you want me in like a linen suit to fit this like desert chic vibe? It's these things like make a big difference. Like how does your setup look? Does it, is it ugly and cables everywhere or is it like gorgeous, clean and you know, very tidy? Like when you think of the wedding industry, like you think of like all these like publications and stuff like that that happened, everything is gorgeous. And that's how brides imagine their wedding day. And

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

so if your website, if your, And unfortunately, the industry is very vain, right? So if your

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

website isn't gorgeous, if your Instagram photos and videos aren't gorgeous, if you show up, if you're a guy and you show up with messy hair and Converse sneakers, they're not gonna book you, right? And so unfortunately, yeah, guys, trim up your beards. Get a haircut. Ladies, wear a nice dress. It goes a long way

Allison:

Thank you. Bye.

Moses Lin:

because the question is, when you think about Think about the bride's perspective, right? You are spending

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

100, 150K on this wedding. You know, those are ideal clients, right? So we gotta think long-term. So you might not be there yet. I do a lot of weddings that are way under that, but you know, still, you gotta think about your ideal client. So they're spending 100, 150K, and all they think about is like, ah, the venue's gorgeous, the flowers are gorgeous, everything, like how do I want the aisle set up, how do I want the reception, we're gonna do flowers on the scene. Like, they have all these visions of aesthetic, and then they see your Instagram page, do you fit inside their vision? Can they

Allison:

Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

envision you at their wedding? Because if they can't, immediately, they're not gonna book you. Right, but if

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

they see you at a wedding and they're like, wow, this person is such a vibe, and they totally would fit, they'd be perfect, my friends would love them. Then it's such an easy transition to be like, well then just book me, right, because you fit. But if you don't, then they're like, oh, okay, like, I need to find a way to fit this in, you know, like, unless you're like, I'm sure you guys have seen that photo circulating of John Mayer playing at someone's wedding in like jeans. And it drives me crazy. Cause it's like, no one in their right mind, like if it wasn't John Mayer, right? No one in their right mind

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

would book a musician that wears jeans, right?

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

But it's John Mayer. So once you've made it and you're John

Allison:

Get

Moses Lin:

Mayer,

Allison:

away with

Moses Lin:

then

Allison:

it.

Moses Lin:

you can break all these rules and it doesn't matter.

Allison:

Ha

Moses Lin:

But

Allison:

ha!

Moses Lin:

one of my coaching clients, I actually met him at a hotel cause I was staying at this resort and he was performing in the lobby. And it was really, It was embarrassing for me and bro if you're watching this, I'm sorry, but um So I I walked into the lobby and he was just coming off break So I hadn't heard him yet But I saw him walking towards his equipment and he was wearing shorts and flip-flops And I immediately turned to the person I was with and I was like we're leaving And I just left I didn't even stay to hear him play because I was like he's wearing shorts and flip-flops like At this really nice resort, right? This is like one of the top resorts in oc and later like I get this And he's like were you just in this hotel lobby? I was the musician there I saw your your CNBC video like would love to like pick your brain about some stuff and I was like, oh man I feel so bad. I didn't hear you play And so I went back and I like talked to him But like the first thing I told him on a coaching session is like never wear shorts and flip-flops to a gig ever again I don't care how much

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

they're paying you full suit every time, you know Maybe drop the tie if it's really casual But you should always be wearing a jacket because that's the that's the that's the impression that you're giving

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

hard as luxury, you have to look luxury.

Allison:

Got it. Got it. No, that's so good. When it comes to the website and SEO and people finding you through

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

Google, I'm curious

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

if that's also a component for you or how does that compare to the people you get from referrals?

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

Talk to us about that when it comes to luxury clients.

Moses Lin:

Yeah, so your lead sources change as you scale.

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

And so certain things are more important in the beginning stages, and

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

certain things are more important in the later stages. And so you need all of them. And

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

so essentially, if you think about SEO, SEO is this like, SEO is search engine optimization. And so it's pretty much a way of structuring your website and doing a lot of work to boost your website so that people will find out Google searches. So typically,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

If you search wedding guitarist in certain cities, a lot of times I will be one of the first couple rankings. And that's because I've done a lot of work coding my website and getting a lot of backlinks and getting endorsements and stuff like that. And so I do rank pretty high, but SEO in general is just this like, you're casting this wide net and you're just getting everybody, right?

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

And so right now, just based on my price range, I would say like almost like 95 or more percent of the people that find me through at Google searches, they just can't afford me. And that's totally okay,

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

you know? It's

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

just what it is, right? Because you're getting everyone from every budget, and a lot of times they just, they put in a simple search and they're expecting a certain budget and that's not what I provide and that's okay, right?

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

And so I am finding the SEO is less and less valuable to me.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

When I was first starting, it was very valuable. I got a ton of

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

leads from it. It was really great to jumpstart everything before people in the industry knew me well enough to refer me, right? And so it was like immediately,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

finding me so it did a lot of work for me early on. I wouldn't recommend necessarily paying for SEO, I've never paid for SEO. I would just like, it's really easy just watch YouTube videos and learn how to like code your website properly and different like tips to do it. So I think people that like charge for SEO, they're really charging you for just like stuff you could very easily find on Google, like just Google

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

search how to SEO your website and stuff like that, how to get backlinks, it's super easy. And also it's very unsaturated for

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

If you're like a photographer or planner, then yeah, maybe you might want to pay to get some extra work Because those are a little more competitive but musicians no one's doing SEO for us. So it's really easy to beat everyone I would say if you are in kind of like those beginning stages It's really important to also like play the long-term game of building a network, right? Because where I'm at now if a higher percentage comes directly from like wedding planners and even venues that Will just like refer me because I've spent years building these relationships and kind of building a reputation in the industry. So people in Southern California, they know me, they know my work, they know my reputation, and so they refer me. And because they know me, those leads are like pre-qualified.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

Sorry, my phone just went off, I put that in airplane mode. So they're essentially pre-qualified, right? And so like,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

if there's a wedding planner that regularly does very expensive weddings, I know that every lead from her theoretically can't afford me.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

which is a lot more valuable than some random SEO lead that is just, you know, a shot in the dark, whether they have the budget lines up. And so,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

yeah, SEO is great when you're starting, but definitely play the long game of investing years into getting to know your local network, networking with people that are at your level or higher that you would want to work with.

Allison:

Mm-hmm, 100%. And this is something, you know, you see variations in how people build this type of business, but one thing it always comes back to is that referral network and, you know,

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

making good relationships and being good to those people because it's 100% across the board. Everyone who's done anything in this business, they all have a strong referral base. So absolutely,

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

and I feel like there's these like quantum leaps, if I can call them that, that exist with like, because like for us, from Google and I find those leads are quite high quality but not quite as high as the referral base. Like we

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

get around 50% of our leads

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

from referrals and then 50 from SEO and the SEO ones convert at like 50-ish percent. We have much lower prices

Allison:

leads. So we experience the same thing that you do. in

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

a different range, but it's definitely the highest quality is in referrals. But I would say below all of this, in my opinion, is referral listing sites, the leads

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

that we get from there in terms of budgets. I think getting leads from your own website is higher quality than listing

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

sites in most cases, and referrals I would position

Moses Lin:

Yep.

Allison:

at the top. But what would you say? Would you agree with

Moses Lin:

I

Allison:

that

Moses Lin:

would

Allison:

hierarchy

Moses Lin:

totally

Allison:

there?

Moses Lin:

agree. I would totally agree.

Allison:

Yeah.

Moses Lin:

And definitely,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

I love that you're, I feel like we really connect because we're both very business-minded too.

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

And I think that's something that's really hard for me to do sometimes. But

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

guys, you gotta be tracking your data. Track your lead

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

sources, do your percentages, do your conversion ratios, do what Allison's doing and be like, oh yeah, I get 30% of my leads from this source and they convert at this percent, right? Because that's just information so you know

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

what's working and what's not. And then you can track that over time Wow, my conversions from SEO are going down, my conversions from network's going up. Okay, maybe it's time to join one of those networking groups that you have to pay a membership to and pay to attend these events because it's working for you. Now double down on it, right? And maybe stop paying

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

for those ads because they're not converting, right?

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

So I used to, to answer your question, I used to pay for WeddingWire and

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

the conversion ratios were awful. I would get all these

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

leads that never responded. And I'm like, are these fake leads? I don't even know. And so I still have a lot of questions like a free profile, you know, just to collect reviews,

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

but I don't pay for that anymore. And I would agree with you. I would say referrals like from network people are at the top. I

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

would say, let's see, there are certain listing sites that are like associated with networking groups, like paid

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

networking groups.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

So for example, like I do advertise with California which is like a local kind of magazine publication out here.

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

And they also kind of have like a listing. But that's more because I am like investing in that network. Because every time I go to those events, I meet planners and those planners book me, right? So it's like

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

I'm not really... I only recently started listing with them. So I'm not expecting leads from the listing, but

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

I am expecting my membership in this community to pay off, if that makes sense. So there's like those kinds of things. of groups. I would put like

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

WeddingWire and Yelp at like the very bottom and then

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

every now and then you get lucky with SEO so that's kind of like second to bottom tier.

Allison:

Yeah, that's so important and like you said, to be able to track and then you know what to double

Moses Lin:

Yeah.

Allison:

down on. And especially if you're playing a long-term game, which I know you think that way, 100% being in these networking groups, even paying for them makes a lot of sense. So

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

I'm curious, is there any more, because a lot of people think that when it comes to referrals, there's no strategy behind it, or we just kind of got to cross our fingers and hope. How do you approach it? Since you see that it's where your highest quality clients come from, do you think about it in a certain way? Do you have any strategies around it? I know you mentioned the networking group but I'm curious

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

if there's anything else that comes to mind.

Moses Lin:

Yeah, networking has been like, I think the last maybe year, year and a half, I've been really doubling down on networking.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

And I think a lot of musicians get scared by that term because they're imagining a very corporate situation where you

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

walk up to a stranger in a suit and you hand them your business card and you say, hi, I'm Moses, I'm a fingerstyle guitarist, here's my card, can I get your card, what do you do? And it's just so awkward. And

Allison:

Right, right.

Moses Lin:

I would hate that. If that was networking, do it right so

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

people freak out because it's like a term networking but networking just building relationships it's just like going out getting a drink with someone hanging out you don't have to talk about business right you're just building relationships

Allison:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

so I think people get too freaked out about that a lot of networking events you just show up there's like a cash bar there's like a DJ and you just hang out with people right and it's no different than like happy hour after work kind of thing for for nine to five people

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

so my approach and to just go to everything and be everywhere. And so every time someone

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

goes to an event, I'm there. And they're reminded that I exist and they're reminded

Allison:

All

Moses Lin:

that I'm the best. And

Allison:

right.

Moses Lin:

yeah, and so that's kind of been it. So lately, so I'm part of a couple of groups. I started going to a lot of like out of state events. And so I went to this like, I went to a gala in Chicago to network there. I went to this like Christmas concert, this entertainment company was doing in Dallas. I went to Vegas a couple times for a couple events, and then I'm going to Colorado next week for another networking event. And I think it's just this thing where you just go and you just party with people, really. You

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

know? And you get people to like you, and it's not necessarily like, you're not trying to prove yourself to people, you're just trying to get

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

them to like you. Because here's

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

the thing, your work should speak for itself, right?

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

So essentially, you just need someone to have an excuse And your Instagram will book them

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

right if you're doing your social

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

media, right? They just need to look at it and they'll be like, oh my god I have the perfect client for you, right? You don't need to do

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

a hard ask you just go and you just hang

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

out with people and The thing with the wedding industry is it's a lot more personable than most industries so

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

like a lot of my like friends are just in the wedding industry and You know, it's like it's like networking. So I'm gonna write it off my taxes But really it's like if these people left the wedding history They would still be my friends and that's kind of how I like to keep it And so essentially, people want to work with people they like.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

So it's like if you're a wedding planner, you don't want to book a whole vendor team of people that are annoying that you don't like, that you're not friends with. You want to

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

hang out with all your friends. You want to do a Cancun wedding and fly out all your friends and hang out with them for the week and then do an awesome wedding together. And so

Allison:

Thanks for watching!

Moses Lin:

it's really just going out there and making friends. And so for an extrovert like me, I love the sound of that. Anytime there's an event like, I'm booking a ticket, flying out, I'm going, I'm going to meet everyone, it's going to

Allison:

Hehehe

Moses Lin:

be a great time. And that's kind of like one thing that I feel like I'm pretty good at. And there's a lot of like luxury ones too that are like really elaborate that you can go to. I go to one called Engage and those are like really expensive to go to, but those are all like the really, really top people. And so when you start going to like very like high price tiers, you want to make sure you're not bringing the right people. So

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

I ran into an issue. years ago where essentially I was investing a lot into my local network over like maybe like two or three years and I finally got to the point where like I felt like everyone knew me, everyone loved me, I was like everyone's first choice for live music and then I started doing my conversion ratios and I started realizing that like there was like a year where I had like over 100 referrals from wedding planners and like maybe like five booked and

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

I was like oh my god like I have this really of people that can't afford me.

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

And it was really hard to realize that. So I was like, these are good people. They're my friends, I love

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

them. I'm still gonna hang out with them. But the business

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

connection isn't valuable to me anymore because I've

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

outgrown them.

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

And so I think that's one thing to keep in mind is like, you wanna network with people at your level, above your level, but also keep in mind which ones are personal connections. These are my friends, I love them. They're really fun to hang out with. I'm going to chat them up because I like them. Separate

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

that from these are the people that make me money.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

And so I think a lot of times people either get stuck in a certain tier because if all your referrals are in one price tier, you can't

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

go above that because all of a sudden you

Allison:

Mm.

Moses Lin:

lose all your referral networks. So you have to

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

always be networking at a range. And so as you move up, you need to find the people that will move up with you. Or if they're not, you need to find people that are at that level. Because if I have like 100 planners that are referring me to work at like $1,000 a wedding, I can't even raise it to $1,200 because I will then lose all of my income, right? And so

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

wherever you're at, you have to make sure that you are working with planners at a range and like vendors at a range.

Allison:

Mm-hmm. Wow, yeah, that was fire. And it makes me think because there's almost a feedback loop effect because performances

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

get more performances, right? So if you're doing the best you can to get the best Instagram content or whatever it is, but you're at these lower value venues and you're

Moses Lin:

Yup.

Allison:

not at the places that are charging as much and not in the places that are gonna be

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

having clients that are gonna be able to pay you what you wanna make, you can kind of, I suppose, stay stuck in that loop you're not intentional about it. So it seems like you've taken

Moses Lin:

Oh

Allison:

the

Moses Lin:

yeah.

Allison:

approach to be intentional about getting in the right places

Moses Lin:

Mm-hmm.

Allison:

for the content, for that feedback loop to start turning in your favor.

Moses Lin:

Exactly. It can be a whole spiral, right? So like

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

You have to you have to draw boundaries and no one to say no and like protect your like creative brand image, let me give an example,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

right? So if you're a photographer,

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

right and You have a client that books you at this Barnhouse wedding that's doing Mason drawers and burlap and you are like, okay. Well, you're paying full price. So I guess I'll do it, right and you post those

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

photos What's gonna happen? You're gonna get three more brides that find your Instagram photos be like, oh my god I love Mason drawers and burlap burlap and barnhouses, right? Let's go.

Allison:

Let's

Moses Lin:

And so they book you a full price

Allison:

go.

Moses Lin:

and all of a sudden you find that you're making good money but your entire feed is barnhouse and mason jars and you wanna be doing editorial, right?

Allison:

Right.

Moses Lin:

And all of a sudden the planner that wants to give you the wedding of your dreams, Italy, editorial, right? She looks at your Instagram, she's like, oh, this is a barnhouse burlap kind of photographer, right? And they're like, no, we don't want her. We don't want him, right? And so, yes, along the way, but because you weren't true to your brand identity and your creative vision, all of a sudden

Allison:

Hmm.

Moses Lin:

you have alienated the planner that would have taken you to the next level and the planner that would have given you the wedding that you've always dreamed about doing. So

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

sometimes I do weddings at certain venues where I'm just like, this doesn't necessarily align with the image I'm trying to present.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

Beautiful wedding, I'm still going to do my best, I'm still going to give 110%, but I may or may not post this content and that's okay.

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

Right. And so I think you really need to curate like what is it that like let's talk about bias persona, right? So it's like who is your ideal client, right? What

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

do they like? What kind you know, you can get really crazy with bias persona like do they have pets, you know, what are their hobbies? Where do they like to shop? What do they like to

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

eat? You know, like

Allison:

Mm-hmm.

Moses Lin:

where do they vacation?